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Thread: Why did clove oil just kill my fish? PLEASE

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    wakoiboy is offline
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    Why did clove oil just kill my fish? PLEASE

    So thanks to all the advice on this forum I added 10 drops of clove oil per gallon to knock out my fish. I applied tricide neo, within 2 min put him back in water and he never came out of it. Just died. He had a very small ulcer and now is dead thanks to the advice I got here. I really do not understand what just happened. Why did nobody tell me this can kill my fish so easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wakoiboy View Post
    So thanks to all the advice on this forum I added 10 drops of clove oil per gallon to knock out my fish. I applied tricide neo, within 2 min put him back in water and he never came out of it. Just died. He had a very small ulcer and now is dead thanks to the advice I got here. I really do not understand what just happened. Why did nobody tell me this can kill my fish so easily.
    I have not used clove oil in many years but I never used it at such high rates. I did 2 -3 drops per gallon. We now use MS-222 which is much safer than clove oil. Clove oil is very stressful on Koi. I am sorry about your loss and frustration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakoiboy View Post
    So thanks to all the advice on this forum I added 10 drops of clove oil per gallon to knock out my fish. I applied tricide neo, within 2 min put him back in water and he never came out of it. Just died. He had a very small ulcer and now is dead thanks to the advice I got here. I really do not understand what just happened. Why did nobody tell me this can kill my fish so easily.
    I am not sure who gave you advice but its not fair to blame the folks here when the only try to help. I am not sure what happened as we have used clove oil many many times and they all recovered fine. Did you have air in your clove Bowl? How long did you try and retrieve the fish before you found him to be dead? It can take a while for them to wake up..Anytime you treat fish you take chances that something can go wrong..Again sorry for your loss...We use 8-9 drops per gal.
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    For small ulcers I just lift the fish out spray the tricide and put denture powder .
    I dont like anesthesia , do you know ho many humans dont come out of it (too many variables involved - weight condition etc etc)..
    Prem


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    Personally I use ten drops per gallon myself and have never had an issue. This forum gives advice and information which you as an individual may interpret and do with as you like. Also it's your responsibility as a hobbyist to understand the risks involved with koi keeping and every medication and remedy you use. There are good people with good knowledge here and I'm really sorry your fish died, but please, please, don't accuse anyone.

    I have some questions for you.

    How big was the fish? If it was really little it can be too much.

    If the fish was over about 20 inches what did you use to move it, and how much water was it in? Did you properly support its back? Just the stress from moving a large fish can kill it.

    Did you make sure to mix it as best you could? Is there a chance the fish's head was in nothing but unmixed clove oil?

    Did you aerate? Failure to aerate can cause suffocation of fish.

    How much water was it in and did you measure properly? Is there a chance you overdosed?

    How long was the fish in? If it was in there over five minutes that can mean fish death.

    When it was presumed dead did you try moving it through the water to get oxygenated air flowing over its gills?

    Was your fish used to moving and did it run a lot when you tried to catch it? Stress can kill fish.

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    Hummmmmm, As a vet tech I have seen young healthy dogs die on the surgery table. Why, seems as though they had an undetected heart problem. This could well be the cause of your fishes death. An unknown issue with it health. Just a thought.
    r koi

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    Can we move this? It isn't and Emergency it's a discussion.

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    One of the other things to consider with clove oil is that it must be mixed very well.
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    Maryanne
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    When I needed to use clove oil, I added the correct number of drops per gallon into a small container with water and shook it up rapidly before adding it into the holding tub.
    Last edited by Maryanne; 11-03-2008 at 08:36 AM.

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    Question Clove oil

    I personally have noticed weak fish really have a hard time with clove oil or fish with gill issues.If the fish show any signs of weakness I would not use clove oil. Because reviving is very difficult.The ulcer may have wore the fish down or may have had a gill issue do you know what caused the ulcer.

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    Do not know who you got your advice from, but this sounds very much like user error. Only guessing from what you said, but many of us use clove oil successfully. In fact, KHA reccommends its use or ms-222.
    So, do not try and point the finger at Koiphen members please. There are many very experienced members & KHA's here and unfortunately a few novices who have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. We occasionally see inexperienced members giving bad advice and try our best to monitor and correct it when possible.
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    I was deathly afraid the first time I used clove oil, but after some experience, you're alot more comfortable with its use cause you know what to look for.

    Hirogoi pretty much covered all the things that you need to be aware of, and if any of those things were overlooked - it could result in fish death.

    Gaining experience is painful and costly. Sorry for your loss...

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    As some of you know I used clove oil (which is not now my preferance) to put out my 25" Kin Ki Utsuri, which after 20 drops never went to sleep. I ended up hiring a Koi Doctor and he used the medical version of MS-222 and it worked like a charm at three tsp.

    I am very sorry for your loss, maybe something else was going on, maybe your fish was alergic to the use of clove oil, very rare but possible.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by wakoiboy View Post
    So thanks to all the advice on this forum I added 10 drops of clove oil per gallon to knock out my fish. I applied tricide neo, within 2 min put him back in water and he never came out of it. Just died. He had a very small ulcer and now is dead thanks to the advice I got here. I really do not understand what just happened. Why did nobody tell me this can kill my fish so easily.
    Its an extremely rare case or user error, putting under with clove oil is safe, very rare something like this would happen. What probably did happen was user error, what did you do with the fish after you removed finished with, if you put it in a small tub that is risky b/c of the clove oil on the skin may still be enough to knock the fish out when mixed with the new water solution if you are using a bowl or tub. You generally want to rise the koi off then return to the tub or larger body of water and move the fish back and forth around a waterfall or air stone. Its more common for people not to understand this part, and dump the koi back into pond without holding hear air source. Clove oil left on the koi or bowl can also cause if that is where you are trying to revive. I've heard of people forgeting to rise good and using the bowl later and knocking more fish out by accident b/c of the clove oil on the sides of the bowl. Doing it with a revivied fish will keep them under.

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    It took almost 10 minutes for my fish to regain full movement and to be come fully active again. You can't just drop him back in the water, you need to make sure you move them back and forth to get the oxgen into the gills..

    Sorry for your loss..

    I am going to edit my post with some of the great information on this thread..

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    Sorry you lost your fish.
    As others have said clove oil is pretty safe to use IF you know what you are doing. You do have to watch for gill movement , how fast the gills are moving, and make sure you put the fish into a different tub with air and pond water for recovery.
    I use anywhere from 8-10 drops of clove oil for each gallon of water and mix it with pond water in a plastic jug before pouring into the sedation tub.

    Are you sure it was 100% clove oil?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakoiboy View Post
    So thanks to all the advice on this forum I added 10 drops of clove oil per gallon to knock out my fish. I applied tricide neo, within 2 min put him back in water and he never came out of it. Just died. He had a very small ulcer and now is dead thanks to the advice I got here. I really do not understand what just happened. Why did nobody tell me this can kill my fish so easily.
    Did you use your pond water to mix the oil of cloves or fresh water? Same temp? Oil of cloves doesnt' kill fish easily.

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    I went back through your previous posts here to see if you had posted problems with sick fish. What caused this koi ulcer? Did you get to scrape and scope before you started the tricide to see if it was parasites?

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    Sorry for your lost. This is the first time I've ever heard of a fish not recovering from the use of clove. I've been using it for 7 years, without a problem. I use 8 to 10 drops per gal. in pond water. Whats important to remember, is that if it takes 6 min. to fully go down it will take the same time to recover. You must move fresh water through the fish gills. Also, I airate the water both in the oil of clove tank and the recovery tank.
    Like in many cases, (especially with my fish) there may be things going on with this fish that we don't know about.
    CP



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    wakoiboy -
    So sorry for your loss, but in general, you were given information that has worked well for the majority of people on this forum. No one gave you bad information, per se... and no one could have predicted that your particular koi would have reacted poorly to clove oil.

    For those of you who don't know all of what happened here, please don't add insult to injury by suggesting user error. Many more details are necessary to make that judgement. It is very possible that no 'mistakes' were made by wakoiboy.

    If you haven't heard of a fish not recovering from clove oil sedation, now you have. This very same thing happened to me a few months back as I was following moment-by-moment instructions of extremely helpful people on this board to the letter. The thread documenting my struggle began with a very simple ulcer on an otherwise healthy fish as well:
    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ighlight=showa

    Since that time I have used clove oil quite successfully with other koi, but I take a much more conservative approach until I know how the individual koi responds to the oil. Also... I purchased my clove oil from a health food store, which some on this board - and now I too - have surmised is a bit stronger than what might be obtained from other sources.

    I was extremely distraught over losing my koi after having done nothing 'wrong' that anyone could help me figure out. Chalking this difficult experience up to making you a better koi keeper in the future is the best way to turn things around.

    bec

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