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Thread: Koi with fin rot, what to do with the rest of the fish and pond?

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    eeiko321 is offline
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    Koi with fin rot, what to do with the rest of the fish and pond?

    Hi guys

    is fin rot contageous?


    i just bought a koi over the weekend, didn't quarantine it. Big mistake... (i know i know...but whats done is done...need to rectify, time)

    introduced it to the pond and noticed the fin was deteriorating pretty quickly...first day it was slightly discoloured (white fins of a Kohaku)

    today it was missing a very small section at the end and appears to be eating away.

    anyhow, I've refunded my money at the koi seller... but what should i do with the rest of the water?

    should i put additives/treatments to disinfect the water? the rest of the koi appear to be unaffected and healthy.

    or should i do a complete water change?

    any suggestions?

    thanks

  2. #2
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    Do you still have the koi? If so, it needs to be treated quickly. Cleaned and antibiotics.

    Tough call, the koi could have a bacterial infection or it could have been caused by parasites.If the koi has been removed, I'd do a good water change and I wouldn't treat until you see a problem with the koi flashing or getting red. Do you have a microscope?
    My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
    Do you still have the koi? If so, it needs to be treated quickly. Cleaned and antibiotics.

    Tough call, the koi could have a bacterial infection or it could have been caused by parasites.If the koi has been removed, I'd do a good water change and I wouldn't treat until you see a problem with the koi flashing or getting red. Do you have a microscope?
    so both parasites and bacteria could both cause fin rot?

    nah i have gotten rid of the fish...exchanged it for another one.

    what would a microscope do?

    what do you mean by flashing or getting red?

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    i did a 60% water change just then...

    one of my bekko...(real tough fish..been through some tough times with the past owner) ..i dunno if its early stages...the right side fin ...theres a tiny tiny split...couldnt recal if it was there before or not.

    hopefully it didn't pass anything on.

    are some koi meant to have real thin reddish veins in the white fins?

  5. #5
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    what you need to do

    Ok... I looked at all of your threads... 19 of them...in just a few months... 9 in the koi health help section..

    you have 150 gallons... you run or have been running your pump 12 hours a day..

    you don't know about the nitrification cycle and how it works...

    you moved into a house with a little pond... you decided to keep it... fine... now do some study and learn about how to keep fish... do not add any more fish...

    you have posted about ulcers... fin rot... fungus......koi jumping out..

    you don't have a microscope and wouldn't know what to do with one... I didn't when I first started either... and I didn't know about water quality and testing... but the learning curve is steep if you want to keep koi and you want them to be healthy... honestly in your little pond, I would go with a few goldfish instead and learn the basics... go see some koi ponds near you... and a koi show if you can find one..... it is a fun hobby if you learn how to keep koi healthy... it is brutal if you keep having ulcers and fin rot and fish dying ... there are simple rules that you need to learn to keep koi healhy.... it won't happen by treating the water with magic potions and keeping your fingers crossed and adding fry and more fish... later if you are still interested, build a real koi pond... just keeping it real


    We all start somewhere... so dont' think I am being mean... I want you to do a little research...... reality check here... if you want to have healthy koi,read all the stickies in the health section..., read the links that people have given you...and read about pond construciton basics there are some good threads on the pond contruction forum....

    at a minimum... run your filters 24-7... do not add any more fish... do regular water changes with de-chlor and do regular water testing.. the smaller your system the easier it is for parameters to get out of line but you won't know if you aren't testing...

    test for ammonia nitrite and nitrate... in a new pond or a pond in which you have killed off the bio filter by not circulating water... you will first get ammonia which is very toxic to the fish.... once established,bacteria will break that down into nitrIte which is still harmful to fish.... other bacteria, which need time to establish as well, will break that down into nitrAte... nitrAte is the least toxic of the three but should still be managed and not allowed to stay above 40 ppm.... some older texts would say 200 ppm or less is still ok... but that can have long term health consequences for the fish too... but mostly it represents that water changes aren't being done often enough and maybe that's the crux of it...
    for simplicity lets say the way to get rid of nitrate is by water changes which can be done by 10% weekly as a minimum... up to a constant trickle of 10% daily... there are other ways to reduce nitrate involving anoxic filtration and or plants and things but they also need to be managed correctly to do you any good...
    testing for ammonia will tell you that the fish are producing ammonia... in a brand new pond you will get a reading until the biofilter is established... in an established pond or system, you should never see detectable ammonia..... if you do something has gone awry with the bio converter...
    testing for nitrite and finding some will tell you that the first type of bacteria you need is starting to do it's job ... if nitrite is too high the fish cannot effectively use oxygen in their gills and can get brown blood disease or permanently damaged gills.. salt will get the fish through this period... in an established pond you should never get detectable nitrIte.. if you do something has gone awry with the bio filter...
    testing for nitrAte will tell you that the second type of bacteria are doing their job... and the rest of the nitrite and ammonia should be being processed by now... in a new pond you will not see a nitrate reading until the ammonia has been processed to this point so it is a good thing... that means you are cycing your filter... but like I said earlier letting the nitrAte build up too high and staying too high represents not doing enough water changes....

    the other testing that needs to be done is ph and kh... the ph should remain steady... and if the kh is too low you could have a ph crash killing the bio filter and possibly all of the fish... so read up on that as well....

    doing water changes without de-chlor can damage the fish's gills from the chlorine.. and can also kill the bio filter.... running water through the filter 12 hours a day instead of 24-7 will kill the bio filter... and even worse, the toxic soup being created will be a home for anerobic bacteria... the kind that cause ulcers and fin rot.. parasites often open up the entrance point and the aeromonas bacteria take it from there... so treating your koi for fin rot is only a small part of the issue....

    So listen to the advice you've already been given and do a little research... stop
    adding fish... find a koi keeper near you...there has to be a club or something near by.. I know australia has lots of koi keepers.... find out what those people do and learn how to keep the koi healthy...
    DAN







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    Powerman is giving you some very good advice, you should take it. It will help you so much and you'll enjoy your more fish.
    Regards,BarbJ
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    Read read and then read some more. Powerman has some good advice that you should be following. This site is full of good information but you need to read and follow it for it to be effective. We don't all agree but for most issues there is a general consencus as to what you need to do to be successful. Good Luck

    Larry
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerman View Post
    Ok... I looked at all of your threads... 19 of them...in just a few months... 9 in the koi health help section..

    you have 150 gallons... you run or have been running your pump 12 hours a day..

    you don't know about the nitrification cycle and how it works...

    you moved into a house with a little pond... you decided to keep it... fine... now do some study and learn about how to keep fish... do not add any more fish...

    you have posted about ulcers... fin rot... fungus......koi jumping out..

    you don't have a microscope and wouldn't know what to do with one... I didn't when I first started either... and I didn't know about water quality and testing... but the learning curve is steep if you want to keep koi and you want them to be healthy... honestly in your little pond, I would go with a few goldfish instead and learn the basics... go see some koi ponds near you... and a koi show if you can find one..... it is a fun hobby if you learn how to keep koi healthy... it is brutal if you keep having ulcers and fin rot and fish dying ... there are simple rules that you need to learn to keep koi healhy.... it won't happen by treating the water with magic potions and keeping your fingers crossed and adding fry and more fish... later if you are still interested, build a real koi pond... just keeping it real


    We all start somewhere... so dont' think I am being mean... I want you to do a little research...... reality check here... if you want to have healthy koi,read all the stickies in the health section..., read the links that people have given you...and read about pond construciton basics there are some good threads on the pond contruction forum....

    at a minimum... run your filters 24-7... do not add any more fish... do regular water changes with de-chlor and do regular water testing.. the smaller your system the easier it is for parameters to get out of line but you won't know if you aren't testing...

    test for ammonia nitrite and nitrate... in a new pond or a pond in which you have killed off the bio filter by not circulating water... you will first get ammonia which is very toxic to the fish.... once established,bacteria will break that down into nitrIte which is still harmful to fish.... other bacteria, which need time to establish as well, will break that down into nitrAte... nitrAte is the least toxic of the three but should still be managed and not allowed to stay above 40 ppm.... some older texts would say 200 ppm or less is still ok... but that can have long term health consequences for the fish too... but mostly it represents that water changes aren't being done often enough and maybe that's the crux of it...
    for simplicity lets say the way to get rid of nitrate is by water changes which can be done by 10% weekly as a minimum... up to a constant trickle of 10% daily... there are other ways to reduce nitrate involving anoxic filtration and or plants and things but they also need to be managed correctly to do you any good...
    testing for ammonia will tell you that the fish are producing ammonia... in a brand new pond you will get a reading until the biofilter is established... in an established pond or system, you should never see detectable ammonia..... if you do something has gone awry with the bio converter...
    testing for nitrite and finding some will tell you that the first type of bacteria you need is starting to do it's job ... if nitrite is too high the fish cannot effectively use oxygen in their gills and can get brown blood disease or permanently damaged gills.. salt will get the fish through this period... in an established pond you should never get detectable nitrIte.. if you do something has gone awry with the bio filter...
    testing for nitrAte will tell you that the second type of bacteria are doing their job... and the rest of the nitrite and ammonia should be being processed by now... in a new pond you will not see a nitrate reading until the ammonia has been processed to this point so it is a good thing... that means you are cycing your filter... but like I said earlier letting the nitrAte build up too high and staying too high represents not doing enough water changes....

    the other testing that needs to be done is ph and kh... the ph should remain steady... and if the kh is too low you could have a ph crash killing the bio filter and possibly all of the fish... so read up on that as well....

    doing water changes without de-chlor can damage the fish's gills from the chlorine.. and can also kill the bio filter.... running water through the filter 12 hours a day instead of 24-7 will kill the bio filter... and even worse, the toxic soup being created will be a home for anerobic bacteria... the kind that cause ulcers and fin rot.. parasites often open up the entrance point and the aeromonas bacteria take it from there... so treating your koi for fin rot is only a small part of the issue....

    So listen to the advice you've already been given and do a little research... stop
    adding fish... find a koi keeper near you...there has to be a club or something near by.. I know australia has lots of koi keepers.... find out what those people do and learn how to keep the koi healthy...

    Heya power man.

    I have been learning, I have always personally & generally learn faster by asking questions that just studying.

    And I have read that majority of people have overstocked ponds and being a fish fan. I obviously got a little carried away with the koi bug bite..by adding a few fry and a small fish.
    I Think I've come a long way myself, as you may have read of how I found the small pond. Having only a pump mesh filter and during settlement of purchasing this house which would've been for weeks...the two koi survived in not just Green pea soup that you couldn't see the base. The viscosity wasn't just WATER... It was virtually green viscous SLIME. When I gave the pond a fresh new start... Scooping out loads and loads of dead snail shells, bricks etc. I'm still amazed of how they survived for weeks in that toxic water without any visable disease.

    I started off feeling sorry for the fish as well as the wife wanting to keep them. (yes I am the bugger that works on the pond. solo)
    , So I've added a decent sized filter and uvc for the pond and a better airation system than the water feature.
    I don't think I am the total criminal here.

    The next step would obviously start testing for ammonia and nitrate etc. (water ph is generally fairly high in town water)
    And possibly upgrading the pond and having a smaller pump to run 24hrs.
    (trickle system, if someone could show me
    More about it)

    But I assure you, I am here to learn. And yes no one was born from the vent of a koi and born an expert. You gotta start... somewhere right??

    Nah I don't think you have been mean, as the other members here said... You have some good advice.
    As I mentioned I ask questions due to my own personal way of effectively learning from peers. So I hope you guys don't mind them.

    I have taken what you said valuably.
    I hope you don't think that I am or would be one of those people whom wake up deciding they want koi and end up not doing the hard yards in the responsibility.

    I believe I've been taking a step at a time to attempt to set things right with the current set up for the years to come.

    And I hope could learn more from you guys from this day forth...
    I've joined a few forums in the past for other hobbies but as myself and many people believe, That just sometimes.. Nothing good results in forums.
    I've witnessed people being outcasted by lack of knowledge.. Monkey see monkey do in the One dimensioned opinions...people Blown up and molestered for not using the search function etc etc. Sometimes kind of defeats the purpose of a forum and learning from one...(car club and motorcycle forums being the WORST).

    Anyhow I'd like to take this chance to thankyou all That read this...for
    Your support. It really has been a peaceful and helpful forum.

  9. #9
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    Accept for your one koi with possible virus(white stuff)are they all healthy?

    You mentioned red streaks in fins.Is this something going on with your koi or a question in general?
    Last edited by kdh; 03-14-2012 at 06:13 PM.

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    The search function is here for a reason. The reason is so that people don't always have to post the same questions over and over and over because chances are, it's already been asked multiple times. By posting something that's already been answered several times, it takes time away from questions that haven't been asked before and need immediate help.

    I started to this forum the same way you have.. not searching.. just asking away, and annoying the crap outta people. Annoying people and getting offended with everything "mean" someone would say to me. I got infractions, and I even got banned at one point.

    This is a great site- but take the advice as it's given to you. There are so many people here that have been in the hobby longer than some of us have been alive.. they know their koi stuff like the back of their hand.

    I would listen to powerman, and just take it step by step. Goldfish are extremely hardy creatures- it living in slime is definitely not unheard of. My friend had a goldfish just out of a tank and into a bowl of milk while she was at work for 6 hours, and that thing lived 8 more years after that!

    Koi are not easy.. but it does get better. Just take all the advice given to you, and do your best.

    And use the SEARCH key!
    Carp Diem... Don't be Koi.



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    Hello there...I think Powerman just made the longest post on this Board - for him and anyone else. He did give you a lot of good advice. As for using the search function to find the answers, I don't think it works all that well. Many here are good at remembering a thread and will give you a link to it.

    Also, as one who usually tries to help out with fish health questions, I see a lot of similar, but never the same problem. Sooo, I don't mind a newbie with a quest for knowledge asking questions - keeps me grounded to the basics of koi health. However, I would strongly suggest that you start a "running" thread rather than several. It makes it a lot easier for anyone trying to get the big picture if all the problems/questions are in the same place.
    For the love of Koi
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    Quote Originally Posted by mshill90 View Post
    The search function is here for a reason. The reason is so that people don't always have to post the same questions over and over and over because chances are, it's already been asked multiple times. By posting something that's already been answered several times, it takes time away from questions that haven't been asked before and need immediate help.

    I started to this forum the same way you have.. not searching.. just asking away, and annoying the crap outta people. Annoying people and getting offended with everything "mean" someone would say to me. I got infractions, and I even got banned at one point.

    This is a great site- but take the advice as it's given to you. There are so many people here that have been in the hobby longer than some of us have been alive.. they know their koi stuff like the back of their hand.

    I would listen to powerman, and just take it step by step. Goldfish are extremely hardy creatures- it living in slime is definitely not unheard of. My friend had a goldfish just out of a tank and into a bowl of milk while she was at work for 6 hours, and that thing lived 8 more years after that!

    Koi are not easy.. but it does get better. Just take all the advice given to you, and do your best.

    And use the SEARCH key!



    "I started to this forum the same way you have.. not searching.. just asking away, and annoying the crap outta people. Annoying people and getting offended with everything "mean" someone would say to me."

    so obviously I'm annoying the crap out of you by doing that is it?

    in a way i can't agree with you on that one. Sure there is something called SEARCH function in ALL, forums.

    the way i see it, a forum SHOULD be a place for everyone... just like it is in a democratic country and a person has a right of free-speech.

    if a person ..anyone... new or old...pro or noob... didn't have a right to say... then a forum may as well be a bulletin board.

    a kind of "use the search function or GTFO" approach i find generally is just wrong.
    sometimes i find using search is a waste of time...you end up going through a lot of irrelevant things.. irrelevant to yourself... you need a customised answer for your individual need. (as Joey S said, that theres always similar questions but not always the same).


    don't be offended in what i say either... like i said previously, in a forum...somtimes nothing good comes out of it...

    trust me...with forums, I've been there and done that too...

    for e.g i could type something like..."your an idiot" ..you'd probably get agitated. but in real life, i could smile and giggle whilst saying it as a joke... and it would mean nothing.
    but online in writing...thats how arguments happen...you take things the wrong way.

    and in saying that...Because online, your hidden behind a computer...

    for e.g if someone was being incompetent on a forum....people would be quick to criticise him.
    but in real life...in society....the guy that was being incompetent was a outlaw motorcycle gang biker....im sure no one will say anything face to face to him.

    so anyways....

    I'm trying to keep it real in the forum....
    learning and minding my own business.

    i must say, this has so far been the best forum i had ever joined. people have been really patient.

    thanks
    Last edited by eeiko321; 03-15-2012 at 06:35 AM.

  13. #13
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    How is the fish with the fin rot doing?

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey S View Post
    Hello there...I think Powerman just made the longest post on this Board - for him and anyone else. He did give you a lot of good advice. As for using the search function to find the answers, I don't think it works all that well. Many here are good at remembering a thread and will give you a link to it.

    Also, as one who usually tries to help out with fish health questions, I see a lot of similar, but never the same problem. Sooo, I don't mind a newbie with a quest for knowledge asking questions - keeps me grounded to the basics of koi health. However, I would strongly suggest that you start a "running" thread rather than several. It makes it a lot easier for anyone trying to get the big picture if all the problems/questions are in the same place.
    I think Boggen holds the record for the longest post... I am a rank amateur in that regard...

    Joey, it is good that you are willing to try to help people with their koi health problems... and if you could be there in person and ask some questions you would observe the koi and their environment and then make some recomendations about how to put things in better order to give the koi a chance...and I bet you would do a test on the water for the basics but being as this is online and no one can see what he has going on we need to rely on what he tells us... the health stickies say we need to know some water parameters... you can treat a koi all you want and if you throw it back into a high ammonia, uncycled pond with a pump running only 12 hours a day do you think it can heal up?...

    no test for ammonia or anything else yet and he only runs his filter 12 hours a day...

    that is the reason for my long post... trying to get something to click... if he won't run his pumps 24 hours and hasn't tested for ammonia, what can you tell him to fix his fin rot, fungus, ulcers and other issues...

    this is why I suggested he read the stickies in the health sections and construction as well as the links he was given on bio filtration... I never said he had to use the search function... although that would also lead him in the right direction...

    and we all had to start somewhere... the trick is to start
    DAN







  15. #15
    powerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eeiko321 View Post
    Heya power man.

    I have been learning, I have always personally & generally learn faster by asking questions that just studying.

    And I have read that majority of people have overstocked ponds and being a fish fan. I obviously got a little carried away with the koi bug bite..by adding a few fry and a small fish.
    I Think I've come a long way myself, as you may have read of how I found the small pond. Having only a pump mesh filter and during settlement of purchasing this house which would've been for weeks...the two koi survived in not just Green pea soup that you couldn't see the base. The viscosity wasn't just WATER... It was virtually green viscous SLIME. When I gave the pond a fresh new start... Scooping out loads and loads of dead snail shells, bricks etc. I'm still amazed of how they survived for weeks in that toxic water without any visable disease.

    I started off feeling sorry for the fish as well as the wife wanting to keep them. (yes I am the bugger that works on the pond. solo)
    , So I've added a decent sized filter and uvc for the pond and a better airation system than the water feature.
    I don't think I am the total criminal here.

    The next step would obviously start testing for ammonia and nitrate etc. (water ph is generally fairly high in town water)
    And possibly upgrading the pond and having a smaller pump to run 24hrs.
    (trickle system, if someone could show me
    More about it)

    But I assure you, I am here to learn. And yes no one was born from the vent of a koi and born an expert. You gotta start... somewhere right??

    Nah I don't think you have been mean, as the other members here said... You have some good advice.
    As I mentioned I ask questions due to my own personal way of effectively learning from peers. So I hope you guys don't mind them.

    I have taken what you said valuably.
    I hope you don't think that I am or would be one of those people whom wake up deciding they want koi and end up not doing the hard yards in the responsibility.

    I believe I've been taking a step at a time to attempt to set things right with the current set up for the years to come.

    And I hope could learn more from you guys from this day forth...
    I've joined a few forums in the past for other hobbies but as myself and many people believe, That just sometimes.. Nothing good results in forums.
    I've witnessed people being outcasted by lack of knowledge.. Monkey see monkey do in the One dimensioned opinions...people Blown up and molestered for not using the search function etc etc. Sometimes kind of defeats the purpose of a forum and learning from one...(car club and motorcycle forums being the WORST).

    Anyhow I'd like to take this chance to thankyou all That read this...for
    Your support. It really has been a peaceful and helpful forum.
    I dont think you are a total criminal... and i'm sure the mess you cleaned up was bad like you say...but the new environment isn't alot better unless the new filter runs all the time...

    I believe you that you want to start on the road to making a better environment for your fish... you say you are THINKING about getting a smaller pump to run 24-7
    and that you know the next step is to test for the ammonia, nitrite etc....

    These things are a must if you want to take care of the fin rot and other problems... no matter what you put on the fins to treat the koi.. or weather or not you use antibiotics or dips, if you put your fish back into the environment that is causing the problem you will continue to have problems...
    So I'll step out of the thread and let the health experts carry on and let you know how to treat your koi but my advice still stands... you have to start by running the filter 24 hours a day.... and continue learning but more importantly start applying what you have learned....
    Good luck
    DAN







  16. #16
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    I think if you are not willing to take Dan's suggestion to heart and do ALL of them you should find a new home for the Koi.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
    I think if you are not willing to take Dan's suggestion to heart and do ALL of them you should find a new home for the Koi.
    now saying things like that, earns you respect?

    the world doesn't change by an opinion like that.

    cheers

  18. #18
    eeiko321 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
    How is the fish with the fin rot doing?

    Larry
    it wasn't a fish from my pond.
    the fish is gone...returned and exchanged for another one.


    the fish came like that and i purchased it at dusk..couldnt really see but i noticed some outlines on the tip of the fins.
    and the day after it rapidly deteriorated... and i hard to justify myself when i took it back. because the guy believed he had quality fish.

    and when i wanted another colour...this time he looked at it closely before exchanging it to me..he noticed a red spot/lump on the tail.
    so i didn't take that one either.

    anyways... long and the short of it...it doesn't seem to have spread to any of my fish after approx 5 days after i took it back.

  19. #19
    Cowiche Ponder's Avatar
    Cowiche Ponder is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
    I think if you are not willing to take Dan's suggestion to heart and do ALL of them you should find a new home for the Koi.
    Quote Originally Posted by eeiko321 View Post
    now saying things like that, earns you respect?

    the world doesn't change by an opinion like that.

    cheers
    But, sometimes the truth hurts. If I buy a dog and tie it out in my back yard (now illegal in many places..yeah!) and feed it now and then..give it water when I feel like it. Maybe clean up after him ever other month or so... is there a problem? Ok, maybe that analogy isn't quite the same, but should I keep that dog? Step up to the plate..turn that pump on and leave it on. I can't for the life of me figure out why to turn it off half the day. Maybe it was mentioned why. If I cannot care for an animal the way it should be..I don't keep it. I would love to have goats, I have mutliple friends who would be glad to help me in that addiction, but right now I don't have the correct set up to have goats..so I don't. If the pond isn't correctly set up for fish...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowiche Ponder View Post
    But, sometimes the truth hurts. If I buy a dog and tie it out in my back yard (now illegal in many places..yeah!) and feed it now and then..give it water when I feel like it. Maybe clean up after him ever other month or so... is there a problem? Ok, maybe that analogy isn't quite the same, but should I keep that dog? Step up to the plate..turn that pump on and leave it on. I can't for the life of me figure out why to turn it off half the day. Maybe it was mentioned why. If I cannot care for an animal the way it should be..I don't keep it. I would love to have goats, I have mutliple friends who would be glad to help me in that addiction, but right now I don't have the correct set up to have goats..so I don't. If the pond isn't correctly set up for fish...

    somethings it is..


    but what I'm trying to say is... some things and comments just aren't worth mentioning.

    for e.g i could sit here and argue with you about what he said and what you think. and how i see things or how i think.

    i mean, i may have a set up that majority of people in this forum may not approve. but still at the early stages of learning.
    and as far as what I've read in the forum....ALOT of people had learned things "THE HARD WAY". you know, people has never lost fish here, before?!?
    and some of these are senior members here... and what, SWEAR the hell out of them for mistreat, Terminating, EXECUTING their fish?
    were all human...
    I'm sure they've learnt and did things different that day onwards... and lets say they didn't....what can you about it?!

    anyways, I'm just gonna stop here.
    this forum..
    its not a place for arguments.

    cheers
    have a good day

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